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Witness Name: Mrs Catrona Brown
Statement No: WITNO259_01
Exhibits: none
Dated: 22 January 2022
THE POST OFFICE HORIZON INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF MRS CATRONA BROWN
1, MRS CATRONA BROWN WILL SAY as follows:
INTRODUCTION
1 I am grateful to the Chair to be invited to provide a “human impact” statement,
concerning the physical, psychological, emotional, reputational and financial
consequences to me and my family of being held responsible for shortfalls shown by
the Horizon IT system and Post Office Limited’s actions toward me and my family.
The initial paragraphs below provide a brief summary of my background, and provide
context to the detail of the human impact of the Horizon scandal on me and my
family. This statement does not reflect a full account of my experiences or those of
my family and if necessary or required I will provide further witness statement
evidence.
2. 1am 53 years old. I am married to Mr Edward Brown, who is also a core participant
in the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry. We have been married for 31 years. We run the
newsagents that was once part of our Post Office. We have 3 children.
3. I currently run a newsagents with my husband, three doors down from our old post
office. I also work part time as an assistance in our former post office. My sister took
over our previous post office and is the subpostmistress. I continue to work as the
part time manager assistant of that post office.
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4. I wish to highlight at the outset that there continue to be regular shortfalls in the
Horizon System today, in particular with the Lotto Machine. For example, the most
recent shortfall occurred in August or September 2021. It was in the sum of £500.
This shortfall was paid and we are still trying to get it back from the Post Office.
There was also a shortfall of £350 in July 2021.
5. I have read the witness statement of Edward Brown, who is my husband, and who
was the subpostmaster of the post office in which I was the manager. I confirm that
the content of Edward Brown’s statement is true.
BACKGROUND
6. After school, I trained as a secretary, and worked as a secretary in a factory. This is
where I met my husband Edward. I later worked in a number of jobs involving cash
handling, including the National Savings Bank.
re My brother in law purchase the land upon which there was a post office. This post
office was operated from a building, which was like a hut. My brother developed the
land and built shops, including premises to house the post office.
8. My husband and I agreed to run the post office on a temporary basis; however we
ended up running the post office for 26 years.
9. My husband, Edward Brown was a Subpostmaster of Cardonald Post Office,
2187 Paisley Road, West Cardonald, Glasgow G52 3PF from around February 1989 to
in or around May 2015. However, I was the manager and ran the Post Office
alongside my husband and I was responsible for managing the post office’s computer
systems (Horizon), after it was introduced.
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TRAINING AND SUPPORT
10.
11.
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I did received some limited training a while before the Horizon System was
introduced, however it was very limited and not good quality.
I was present when a trainer came to our branch after the introduction of the
Horizon System. The Post Office trainer came to our branch for a couple of days. He
appeared unsure as to how the system operated or how to use it.
There were other occasions when Post Office trainers would provide training in
relation to new products that the Post Office was selling and how to put these
through the Horizon System. These were usually a couple of hours in the evening.
The training provided was never in-depth.
HELPLINE
13.
14,
a5.
16.
As I was the person responsible for the Horizon System in the branch, I would
normally be the person who called the Helpline when we had problems. However,
when large shortfalls arose the Helpline would insisted on speaking to my husband
Edward, as he was the subpostmaster.
I called the Helpline very often. I found that they understood the Horizon System,
but they did not understand the practical application in a branch.
This continues to the present day, although it is not as bad. There are still occasions
when I call the Helpline, they give advice, and I have to correct them, as if I followed
their advice, a shortfall or discrepancy would arise.
I have now been operating the Horizon System for some 21 years, so I have learnt
how to work it, as well as many of its flaws.
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17.
18,
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20.
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Very many shortfalls occurred over the years we ran the post office using the
Horizon System. Many were between £50 — £200. These we would often just pay
into the system, and not report to the Helpline.
However, we would report any shortfalls over approximately £500. There were many
such shortfalls.
When we reported the larger shortfalls, these were then reported to a manager at
the Post Office and an Area Manager would attend the branch.
The Post Office area manager would attend, and do a cursory review and to discuss
the shortfall. The area manager would suggest increasing security, and to ask us to
keep a closer eye on our staff. Indeed, on one occasion the Post Office Area Manager
suggested that the Post Office could supply ‘marked money’ into our system, to
identify who might be taking the money.
The Area Manager would always instruct us to pay the shortfall from our own funds.
We had no alternative but to pay the money.
As a result of the advice received from our Area Manager, we became very
suspicious of our staff and installed CCTV looking directly down on the counter
serving positions.
My husband, Edward Brown, would often stay up very late in the night reviewing the
CCTV footage, to identify who was stealing the money. However, there was no
evidence whatsoever, that any member of staff was stealing.
My own sister worked with us in the post office. I confided in her about the shortfalls
and the security measures we were taking.
My sister became very distressed, and had trouble sleeping. She would constantly
reassure me that she was not stealing money from the post office. I knew that she
would not, but it still upset her and me.
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26.
I now feel very bad that we suspected our staff and monitored them so closely. I
used to look at them if they had new clothes or on one occasion, when a staff
member had bought a new dog. I now know that they were not taking money from
the post office; it was the system that was at fault. I regret deeply that I treated my
staff with suspicion.
SHORTFALLS
27.
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In this section, I set out in very brief detail my experience of shortfalls arising from
deficiencies in the Horizon IT System, and Post Office Limited’s actions as a result.
This is only a brief introduction to those matters, in order to provide necessary
context for the explanation of the human impact, which follows.
As detailed in the statement of Edward Brown, the shortfalls in the system started
from the date of our very first balance using the Horizon System, and then continue
throughout our time operating the post office.
It is hard to estimate the full extent of the monies we put into the accounts to make
up for the shortfalls; but it was certainly between £75,000 and £80,000.
The shortfall would vary in size from perhaps £50 to as much as £2,000. The largest
shortfall we had was in the region of £25,000.
The shortfalls would sometimes not arise for a while, but would then arise very
regularly.
At one stage, very large shortfalls were arising very regularly. In one period of
approximately 8 — 12 weeks, we experienced a whole series of very large shortfalls
amounting to some £12,000.
This was a terrible period. We reported all of these shortfalls to the Helpline. We did
this to protect ourselves as well as to seek help.
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34.
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An Area Manager would attend to discuss this and how it might have occurred. I
have set out above, how the Area Manager would tell us that he thought it was theft
by staff and suggest security measures.
The Area Manager would then discuss whether we would pay the money there and
then, or if we would be put on a payment plan; with the money being deducted from
our Post Office remuneration.
The sums of money that the system was reporting that were missing were so large
that we were in a desperate situation. We did not have the money to pay the
shortfalls. As such, we had to take out a series of loans to pay the shortfalls. We also
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started to have to pay for everything for us and our children (food and clothing) on”
credit cards, as we simply had no money.
We also had to borrow money from my sister, and Edward’s brother.
Things got so bad, that we simply had no money for food. We would therefore go to
visit family members along with our children at dinnertime, as if we were arriving by
chance. However, we hoped that they would make a place of us at their table, and
feed us.
Sometimes I would ask my mother or another relative to look after my children, as
we knew that they would feed the children before we picked them up.
Edward and ! were very often reduced to eating Cornflakes for dinner, or maybe
toast and beans.
I remember one occasion when my husband was so hungry and feeling so hopeless,
that he opened a tin of beans and ate them with a spoon cold. I became angry at
him, because he did not even take the time to heat them up.
There we were, two people who were running a busy post office, but we did not
have money to feed our children, and we were eating cornflakes and beans.
We hid our poverty from our family, because we were so ashamed.
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As.
46.
47.
48.
49,
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$1.
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53.
The shortfalls were so serious and so regular, that this caused enormous tension
between myself and Edward.
Because I was the manager and operated the Horizon System, Edward naturally
blamed me for the shortfalls. He assumed that the Horizon System was not flawed.
We knew the staff were not stealing, as we were monitoring them on CCTV, so he
thought I must be making mistakes that caused the shortfalls.
Edward would question me as to what transactions I had conducted and we would
argue about this, We would often go home not speaking to each other.
Edward would always apologise afterwards, but then another shortfall would arise
and the questioning and arguments would start again.
The situation got so bad that I took my son and moved in to my mother’s house.
After a few nights, Edward came and asked me to come home.
As I say the shortfalls occurred from the as soon as Horizon was installed and
occurred regularly. There were particular periods that were simply terrible.
The worst example was when we received an error notice from the Post Office
saying that we were short by some £25,000 in relation to a remittance of cash.
We were sure that we had remitted the cash correctly and that our system had
balanced. However, the Post Office maintained that we were short by some £25,000.
We simply did not know what to do; we just did not have money like that.
The Area Manager came to see us. We told him that we had remitted the money.
We showed him our records. However, the Area Manager advised us that we must
have made a mistake and that we must pay the money back.
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54.
55.
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We had no way of refuse to pay. We were terrified of having the subpostmaster
contract terminated by the Post Office. If this happened, we would lose our
livelihood, however we would also be shamed in the community.
My husband and his family have always lived locally; as such losing the post office in
these circumstances would have so shameful for us. We would have had to leave the
area.
We had no choice; we had to pay the Post Office. We took out a £10,000 loan and
agreed a repayment plan with the Post Office for the remaining £15,000.
AUDIT AND INVESTIGATION
57. We were audited by the Post Office approximately once every one to two years.
58. We did not have problems with the auditors, as we had always paid all shortfalls that
arose.
TERMINATION
59. My husband was not suspended or disciplined by the Post Office. This is because we
always paid the shortfalls that arose.
60. The Post Office announced the Network Transformations Scheme. We had worked in
the post office for some 26 years, and we had nothing to show for it.
61. The only money we had came from a separate business that Edward had developed
in which he had two private hire cars. We had nothing from the post office for over a
quarter of a century's work
62. Although, the post office was our business and livelihood, we simply could not live
with the fear of shortfalls. We therefore applied to the Network Transformation
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Scheme and accepted a leaver’s payment on which we had to pay a very large
amount of tax.
63. We used the money we received to purchase a small newsagents three doors down
from our old post office.
64. In the five years that we have operated this busy newsagent shop, we have never
experienced a discrepancy in our accounts of more than £21.06. This £21 shortfall
occurred on Saturday the 11 December 2021, when a customer walked out before
his bankcard had cleared.
65. We use a computerised till and pay point system in our newsagent, a little bit like a
Horizon terminal.
66. This is the difference. In five years of running our newsagents, the worst ‘shortfall’
we experienced was £21. In the 26 years of running the post office, we experienced
countless shortfalls funning to hundreds and to thousands of pounds routinely.
67. It was only after leaving the post office that I came to realise that the cause of the
constant shortfalls was not us, but the Post Office’s Horizon System.
HUMAN IMPACT
68. As I say, it was only after we stopped running the post office that we realised that the
Post Office Horizon System was the cause of all or our troubles.
69. It may seem odd, given how much we paid the Post Office in shortfalls, but we
genuinely believed that the thousands of pounds that were going missing were
somehow our fault or that our staff were stealing. That is because we trusted the Post
Office and our Area Managers, who would come to our branch to discuss the shortfalls
when we reported them.
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70.
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At the suggestion of our Area Manager, we installed a sophisticated CCTV system over
all of our counters and Edward reviewed the footage constantly to check if any of the
staff were stealing. None of them were.
As I was responsible for the Horizon System, Edward blamed me for the losses and
shortfalls. This led to terrible tensions in our marriage, where we would not even
speak to each other, and to the extent that I left to live with my mother for a while.
I estimate that we paid the Post Office, or had deducted from the remuneration,
between £75,000 - £85,000 to make up for supposed shortfalls.
We paid so much money, that we had not money for food for our children or us.
I have described how we used to deliberately arrive at the homes of relatives at
dinnertime with our children, in the hope that they would make space at the table for
us and feed us. The shame of having to do that still burns me.
I have describe how Edward and I would eat cornflakes for dinner or beans on toast.
As I gave this statement, I cried as I remembered becoming angry with Edward for
eating cold beans from the can, because he was so hungry and he felt so hopeless.
When the shortfalls were occurring, I would stay up late each night wondering what I
had done wrong. ! spent countless hours seeking to balance the accounts over and
over again. As I say, over the years we paid or had deducted between £75,000 and
£85,000.
This does not take account of the fact that we had to take our loans and max out
credit cards to pay the shortfalls, and pay the interest on those over years.
We had to go cap in hand to my sister and my brother in law, begging for urgent loans
to pay shortfalls.
We reported the shortfalls we were experiencing again and again to the Post Office.
These shortfalls were often very large.
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80.
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1 now know that other subpostmasters were also experiencing shortfalls like these all
around the country, and that they were also reporting these shortfalls to the Post
Office. The Post Office must have known that there was a problem with the Horizon
System.
Apart from our newsagents, I still work part time at our old post office, which was not
closed under the Network Transformation Scheme.
Because of my experience, the subpostmaster relies on me heavily in relation to the
Horizon System and Post Office procedures.
lcan say, as a matter of fact, that shortfalls continue to occur, in particular with the
Lotto Machine.
For example, the most recent shortfall occurred in August or September 2021. It was
in the sum of £500. This shortfall was paid by the subpostmaster, and we are still
trying to get it back from the Post Office. There was also a shortfall of £350 in July
2021, which we refused to pay. I know why these shortfalls are occurring and I have
tried to explain this to the Post Office, but they still will not listen.
My husband was a participant in the mediation scheme. I cannot confirm exactly how
much he was awarded however, I believe he received approximately £1,200. He was
also party to the Group Litigation against Post Office Ltd, as such he is excluded from
the Historic Shortfall Scheme. The compensation we received from the Group
Litigation came nowhere near meeting the losses we suffered, let alone the distress,
worry and hunger we endured.
However, being involved in that litigation opened our eyes, to the true cause of our
troubles. We discovered that the Horizon System was deeply flawed.
This makes me very angry.
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88.
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I now believe that the Post Office knew from the start (when they installed the
Horizon System in our branch) twenty years ago, that their system was flawed, and
they never told us or fixed it.
If we had known that the system was flawed, we would have been able to insist that
the Post Office properly investigate the constant large shortfalls we were
experiencing, instead of accepting the Post Offices statements that the fault lay with
us or our staff.
I lost years blaming myself for the shortfalls, with my husband questioning my
competence.
Night after night, I would be up pouring over the transactions trying to find out where
the shortfalls were coming from, as Edward crouched over the CCTV footage looking
for a dishonest member of staff who did not exist.
We will not get back the 16 years of worry we had when using the Horizon system, or
the many nights when we knocked on a relative’s door, pretending to be popping
around to visit, when we were actually looking for food for us and our children, as we
did not have money to buy food.
We will not get back the dignity we lost, going cap in hand to family for money to pay
for the shortfalls, nor will I be able to uncry the tears I shed when I felt that I was to
blame.
CONCLUSION
94.
My husband and I actually consider ourselves lucky. We were able to beg and borrow
the money to pay the Post Office for these imaginary shortfalls, other subpostmasters
could not. We went to the verge of bankruptcy, other subpostmasters were pushed
over the edge and lost everything.
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96.
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1 would like the Inquiry to get the records of the calls from subpostmaster to the
Helpline showing how many calls were being received from subpostmasters reporting
shortfalls, and what if anything the Post Office did about those cries for help.
I would like to know where all the money paid by us and other subpostmasters for so
called shortfalls to the Post Office went.
I would like to know how something like this Horizon scandal could be allowed to
happen, was allowed to continue to happen for twenty years, and why no one has
been held to account.
The Post Office and Government continue to drag their feet in dealing with this
scandal. Subpostmasters whose lives were ruined by the Post Office must be properly
and fairly compensated, and this must be done now, and not at some distant time in
the future.
However, subpostmasters and their families also need to have a full explanation as to
how and why this scandal was allowed to happen, and to have those responsible
publicly held to account.
Statement of Truth
I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.
Signed...
Catrona Brown
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